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REVELATION 18:4 – FLEE BABYLON …Discernment Anyone? Chapter 23, the False Prophet by Doug Krieger with Dene McGriff
So, since I do not consider this a monster schism over how many angels can occupy the point of a pen – nor less prominent so that it shall be nailed to Wittenberg’s Door – I shall grant it the gravitas accorded other terminal events…because Babylon the Great’s exodus from planet earth will be most calamitous; and, since the vast majority of us throughout this earthly clod are influenced by her merchandise, whoredoms and military exploits – some more than others – we should carefully analyze those determined to leave her immediate environs now and not to take their departures lightly nor to give them a pass in their steadfast efforts to relieve us all from Babylon’s foremost fortress from whence most of the action emanates: America. What you are about to read is an attempt at civility – and, for the most part, that it is; with occasional bombast thrown in for good measure. Some identities have been otherwise undisclosed to inhibit anxiety expressed by the reading masses – without appropriate camouflage one can become an inadvertent target which is not the purpose of this writing; therefore, a degree of ambiguity is maintained but the overall content abides unattended. I think the read is important for several reasons – one, in the main it sticks to the issues without rancor and personal attacks – frankly, if brethren in Christ cannot address each other in this manner, then we may as well consider ourselves “infidels” and without brotherly affection. What should make us different as believers in Christ is the aroma of His grace – I may vehemently disagree with brethren in the Lord, but personal assaults on their persons and families is not my business nor my judgment call. What avails is the determination on our part to have us all “exercise the spirit of discernment” rather than affirm all the persuasions and dissuasions recorded in, let’s say, websites and blogs like Lazy Man and Money where at the end of it all you can’t tell who’s telling the truth! I may, however, abhor those who make “merchandise out of the Word of God” or contend with them whose false doctrines are injurious to the Body of Christ – but there’s a line which too often is crossed (and I may have crossed that line from time to time – so outraged over the current apostasy I have become) but “sticking to the issues” is far more reliant and worthy since “a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle unto all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will. But know this that in the last days perilous times will come” (II Timothy 2:24-26; 3:1). So, as you see, how we address each other – has a lot to do with the “last days” – as it turns out. Bear with us…these exchanges are not easy…and, of course, this is not to say that I find this brother has been “snared by the devil” – not at all; however, I would ask you to “discern” – for the False Prophet’s guile is insidious and comes in a variety of packages. Keeping our hearts and minds stayed upon the Lord isn’t as easy as it appears! Dene McGriff, due to his world-wide experience (having lived and served in scores of nations around the globe) has decided to add a postscript to this exchange as well. Oh, and by the way, the “earthquake” chart on this front page is designed to scare the daylights out of those still not in shock over the increase of earthquakes “in divers places” proliferating the globe – it gets worse in 2010 and awful in 2011…one might conclude, but most “earthlings” won’t, that this may have something to do with the “birth pangs of the Messiah” – I think so. To say that such is not the case one would be less than accurate and certainly intellectually suspect; however, linking the preponderance of earthquakes to the words of Jesus to the end of the world is another matter – that’s something you skeptics have to grapple with – cheers! And, worse yet, Christians who simply shrug the acceleration of these “fearful events” as the superfluous march of history’s inexorable march to wherever – shame on you too! Now, there are two people who carry on this conversation – it was generated by a recent brother who has “fled Babylon” to the tropics – we’ll call him Juan Carlos (JC for short – no connection to Jesus Christ, just Juan Carlos)…o.k. - they’ll be a couple of missives from JC and then I respond and then JC responds in turn…took me a little while to respond because of nuclear meltdowns, Middle East flare-ups and writing an open letter to Hal Lindsey and David Wilkerson – and, since this ministry has no intention of ever accepting contributions to prop it up (some of us still have to work for a living) – I was caught up in that blessing as well – forgive my humility, it’s showing again! Finally, enjoy the graphics to break things up a bit…. Juan Carlos (JC) – First Letter Dear Doug,
I’ve read most of Bro. X’s writings as well as most of (the) Tribnet’s. I don't recall Bro. X (or myself if you read my blog which I believe you are intimating to by referring to “escaping to Canada, Colombia, or the Philippines,” etc.) ever saying that by leaving the US you are going to escape tribulation, persecution, or torture. I certainly said the opposite that you shouldn't leave the US thinking to escape these things, but rather, as Bro. X also says, the main reason is to escape (is to avoid) “partaking of her sins.” The great danger of being in the US (yes, Babylon is a global system, etc.) is the danger of partaking of hers sins and thusly, running the extreme risk of deception (which God Himself will send) and apostatizing. That is the issue that Bro. X tries to drive home and I too, in my blog, focus on the same thing. Do I sound “arrogant?” Is my “brain off?” Or am I a “fool” for coming to my conclusion by a study of God’s word and the fair use of Strong’s concordance? You complain of Bro. X’s use of pejorative terms and then turn around and when it suits you, do the same thing.
I hope and pray that you will retract your “Come ‘up’ out of her” insertion to the Word of God. You may be right in your interpretation and Bro. X may be wrong, but don’t alter the Word to make your doctrine fit.
Juan Carlos (JC) – Second Letter Doug:
While I’m on the subject below of Rev.18:4, allow me to make a couple of observations I forgot in my original email. You and Bro. X’s relative and others who figure prominently at Tribnet, I assume, are former “members” of Bro. X’s ministry (for lack of a better word). I also assume, because I don't know for sure, that you and the other former ministry associates, held, at least for some period of time, to Bro. X’s interpretation of Rev.18:4. If that is true, then you, over a period of time, had a change of mind and came to your current interpretation. My point being that you are denigrating a position you formerly held when dissociated with Antipas. Now you are so sure that your current interpretation is correct that you can call those who see it differently “arrogant” “brain turned off” and “a fool” (See: Matt.5:22). Again, my assumption is that you formerly held a different view, a view you now hold to be in error. That being said, suppose you are in error now and God really does want His people to physically leave the US (or at least NYC (New York City), that could be another interpretation as well); what might the consequences be for you and all whom you influence with your writings that it is not necessary to leave the US? If I read Rev18:4 correctly, the danger is in partaking of her sins (whatever those may be) and thusly, because sin, and in particular these sins that America Babylon are doing, are of such a nature and influence on the mind and soul of a believer, that he is in extreme danger of being deceived by the great delusion that God Himself will send, that he will then apostatize and lose his soul. That my brother has eternal consequences that can never be changed. Doug, you may be right, but if you are wrong, how many of those you influence will, because they stayed in the US fall victim to the sin and deception warned about and lose their soul/salvation? And for what? Because you, as a leader and an example, whom many look to for truth in regards to this topic, failed to fairly present both sides and most importantly, warn them that if your interpretation is wrong, and they stay in the US, they may not overcome, but be deceived by the deception and partaking of the sin of Babylon. How many Christians today, in America, even in your Church, have a “love of the truth” sufficient to withstand this unprecedented God sent delusion? Doug, this is not about escaping tribulation, suffering, and persecution. It is about ignoring God's warning to leave and falling for the delusion that leads to apostasy and finally, the loss of salvation. If one must err then, then take the narrower road. If Bro. X is wrong, the worst thing that can happen is that one would lose all or most of his worldly goods (by selling everything and moving to another country) and have to come back to the US with his tail between his legs. I’d rather come back humiliated than lose my soul. But as I said in my original email, look what you gain by leaving. You are doing what you may have always wanted to do, missionary work in a foreign field. Minister to the truly poor and downtrodden. Gotten rid of all those material possession that so easily ensnare the soul (“and the deceitfulness of riches” - Matt 13:22) and find a new spiritual freedom that comes from a poor but simple lifestyle (like the one Jesus and his followers led). And on the lighter side, if you are living in one of the many places in the tropics (for an example) you enjoy not only excellent and healthy food but a spring like climate year round. I, for one, am glad I left the US. I have no regrets and many blessings. I pray that you will weigh these things in the “eternal balances.” If we are supposed to leave the US, then God’s handwriting is on the wall, clear and easy to read in Rev.18:4. I pray that neither you, Bro. X, myself, or any that are contemplating the advice we are giving, either to leave or stay, will be “found wanting” when God weighs us in His balances. Most sincerely and with humility, your brother in the Lord, JC Doug Krieger – A Response to JC’s 2 Emails Dear JC:
43And having said this, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 44And the dead came forth (Strong's 1831), bound feet and hands with grave-clothes, and his face was bound round with a handkerchief. Jesus says to them, Loose him and let him go. Revelation 18:4 (American Standard Version) 4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth (Strong's 1831), my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
Thayer's Greek Lexicon: exerchomai 1) to go or come forth of JC - the Messianic deliverance found in Rev. 18:4 is orchestrated
by divine intervention, not by human effort - it is akin to Israel’s
deliverance from Egypt and is corporate in nature (“He brought them forth also
with silver and gold: and there was not one feeble person among their tribes” - Psalm 105:37).
It is a verbal command – “Lazarus, come forth and he came forth.”
It is in sum and substance the Almighty’s rapturous power displayed wherein “My
people” are enjoined as the Two Witnesses of Revelation 11:12:
“And they heard a great voice out of Heaven saying to them, Come up here.
And they went up into the heaven in the cloud.” The Two Witnesses who “strike the earth with all plagues, as often
as they desire” (Rev. 11:6)
will not “share in (Babylon’s) sins ...(nor)...receive of her plagues.”
They are at the very close of Daniel’s Seventieth Week but prior to the 30 days
of the final “desolations” mentioned in Daniel 12:11.
They are “reaped” as “the harvest of the earth is ripe” found in Revelation
14:14-16 and by implication taken up to Him “who sat on the cloud” -
whereas “another angel” reaps the ripened harvest of the unjust by thrusting in
“your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her
grapes are fully ripe” and they are “gathered (of) the vine of the earth, and
(thrown) into the great winepress of the wrath of God” (Rev. 14:17-20). 13And who is he that will harm you, if ye be followers of that which is good? 14But and if ye suffer for righteousness' sake, happy are ye: and be not afraid of their terror, neither be troubled; 15But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: 16Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ. 1 Peter 4:12-19 12Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you: 13But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy. 14If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified. 15But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. 16Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. 17For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? 19Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator. God bless you and give you
abundant testimony and witness wherever you are. Juan Carlos (JC) – Third Letter in Response to Doug Krieger
Thank you so much for your kind response. To the point, I only believe in one rapture; i.e., the second coming of Jesus and I assume this is the first resurrection. To be honest, and I’ve definitely tried to be that, the whole thing is a bit daunting trying to put it all together. It has troubled and perplexed the best of scholars. If you have taken the time to read my blog at XYZ Ministry you will see that my primary efforts are to awaken the saints to come out of the worldly system. I can read what you wrote and it makes sense and at the same time, I see Bro. X’s point too. Again, to be totally honest I’ll probably never be 100% convinced of either. And my other main point – we can be totally convinced of an issue of interpretation like this and then later, come to a different point of view, all hinged on the interpretation of one or more Scriptures. If you had previously seen things the way Bro. X does and now hold a different point of view, then case closed. This is precisely why I urge believers to leave the US. If they leave for the right reasons (get your heart out of Babylon first and foremost or all of your efforts are self seeking and in vain), they have truly lost nothing except worldly possessions which you can't take with you; and they have the most subtle of ways of ensnaring your heart and causing you to fall away by imperceptible degrees. So much so that you will lose a love of the truth, without which you will apostatize, and turn over to the authorities those whom you once loved and fellowshipped with including your own family members. This is the burden of my heart and soul. I could go on for pages and pages but sufficient is what I've said.
Oh, but Bush is “pro-life.” Tell that to the victims of our Terror Wars, beginning with Dishonest Abe until now. Oh, in my rising emotions I forgot how this former “Christian” nation supported not only slavery, but nearly succeeded in their genocide of the American Indians. I have to stop, it’s just too much. I attended all kinds of churches since being saved in ‘69, beginning with the S. Christian commune, evangelical, Assemblies, Nazarene, etc., and I have never heard one word about these things. Only a support for the bloodthirsty, warmongering, rapacious Republicans who differ not one whit in substance from their erstwhile “foes” on the Left. So, my brother, I will continue doing what I do until God shows me differently. I don’t garner many friends in my mission to awaken Christians to the political, religious, and economic system that is using them now and will be the eternal death of them during the Tribulation if they don’t get out of the world system now. I hope and pray that you and Bro. X can somehow reconcile your differences. It breaks my heart and I haven’t even met anyone from the XYZ Ministry or the Tribnet. Maybe, just maybe (and I’m not elevating myself in any way, shape, or form, as both you and Bro. X have a far better command of Scripture than I), my approach, i.e., presenting both sides and agreeing to disagree, but doing everything in our power to open their eyes to the Satanic deception that will surely pull them away from what truth they do have, to full blown apostasy. If they feel that leaving the US is the course of action to take, then so be it. If they stay, for whatever reason, I pray to God they are taught to truly forsake the world. The filth, the warmongering, the love of money...oh yeah, I never heard a sermon in all those years exhorting the wealthy to liberally open their hearts and wallets to aid the poor amongst them, but what the heck does James know anyway, why they almost didn't include his book in the Scripture if my memory serves me correctly. And the truly sad thing is, they won’t even know it happened until the “books are opened” and their name is not found in the book of life. They will be “speechless” on that day. When I read that “few there be that find it” and “if the righteous scarcely be saved, where will the sinner and the ungodly appear,” I tremble in fear before God as I look on my mostly wasted life and pray that the remaining years of my life will be useful to God in the building in some small way, His Kingdom. Yours in Jesus, JC
First, I believe that God speaks to each of us and we are each responsible to do what He tells us to do. If He tells one person to go to another country, they should go. If they are at peace to stay, they stay. We all answer to Him for the things we do in our body. I also believe we are to walk in the light He gives us. When God is dealing with his people on a subject, He speaks clearly and corporately. If Martin Luther had not spoken out about salvation by faith rather than works, there could have been a half dozen other men getting the same light and speaking it to the body of Christ at the same time in history. Other truths have been revealed or recovered, if you will, down through history following the same pattern. But we have never found all Christians in goose step following the same path as lemmings. Some go here, some there and others stay but hopefully by the leading of the Holy Spirit – God will judge – not me. Firstly, one reason we object to a certain brother’s insistence (not speaking of you) that every Christian leave Babylon/America or face the judgment/plagues poured out on her, has everything to do with a “god-like” presumption that 1) his interpretation is one hundred percent correct and that 2) every single person MUST OBEY or suffer the consequences. I happened to be in a cult with that same person nearly 50 years ago when we firmly believed we saw the light and were right and everyone else was wrong. In my humble opinion, it is the greatest of sins to be so presumptuous to believe that you know the will of God for everyone else and they follow your interpretation or else. This kind of exclusive, elitist thinking is the trap we fell into back then. If we want to see how forgiving God is, look at what He said to the church in Laodicea which we would probably all agree is a perfect description of the American evangelical church. Does He tell it to leave the country or die? As dead and lukewarm as Laodicea is, he encourages them to repent and get back in fellowship with Him. Secondly, we have many examples in history which counter this blanket interpretation held by this brother. For example, God Almighty didn’t tell Daniel to flee Babylon but to be careful not to be tainted by its pleasures; basically, something that applies to all of His people even to this day. He did not tell Corrie Ten Boom to flee because an evil guy named Hitler was going to come in; instead, He enjoined Corrie to hide and protect His people. He didn’t tell Dietrich Bonheoffer to flee Germany for his life, lest he be contaminated by the Nazi filth. No, he stood in his faith and paid with his life. I have a Philippine friend here in Sacramento who was imprisoned by the Saudi Supreme Muslim Council. He was beaten every day, week after week. Finally one night he was especially selected as the one they would beat to death. That night he was beaten to within an inch of his life. They shoved a paper in front of him and asked him to write down the names of his accomplices. In his pain filled delirium he started writing names. The next day when he came to, he was so worried about what he may have revealed. They brought him the list of names for further questioning. The list was extensive: Martin Luther, John the Baptist, John Wesley, etc. – you get the idea. What a wonderful God to give him the words and keep him alive. That is the kind of testimony God will require of us. That will surely separate the wheat from the chaff. Let’s Talk a Little About Babylon Thirdly, I wanted to talk a little about Babylon. Yes, I understand completely what Bro. X is saying. There is no doubt that America is prophetic Babylon, and as you know, both Doug and I have written extensively on the subject. The thing I can’t buy is that everyone in America (including Christians) is guilty by association – that is exactly his argument. We don’t minimize America’s sins but it is possible to be in Babylon without participating in her sins, her imperial reach, her economic empire and her oppression of the poor throughout the earth. The vast majority of Americans, including Christians, are deceived (or living in abject ignorance) – they don’t have a clue about these matters. Should the Roman centurion lose his salvation because he was part of an evil system? Fortunately, God deals with us one by one, case by case – His love and mercy endures forever. He didn’t warn early Christians to flee the Roman Empire but stand and deliver a testimony unto death… which is, in fact, what even the lukewarm church in Laodicea did. (Please see Miller’s Church History to read how it all ended for them).
Fifthly – and you said you read some of the things I wrote – I have been as critical of America as anyone, but let me tell you from experience that it is no better out there in “paradise.” Because of my work in international business, I spent a good amount of time living and working in different places. Here is a sample of some of those places: 8 months living and working and traveling in Bolivia, 9 months over a several year period in Colombia (I even had my own apartment, I was there so much), at least 6 months in Mexico, 6 or more months in Argentina, a couple of months in Brazil, 2 months in El Salvador (several trips), work in Guatemala, Costa Rica, Honduras, Peru, Chile, Mexico, etc. Then I spent two years in Spain, living and working in Madrid with offices around the country. I was in Kuwait for about 6 weeks in two trips, Nigeria (5 weeks and 2 trips), South Africa (two trips with over one month total), Indonesia (several months and many trips), with work shorter trips to Thailand, the Philippines, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Singapore, Indonesia, Jamaica, Haiti, Dominican Republic, etc. This is a short list of places I spent time in over the past 30 years. I stayed in houses, apartments, hotels, with families, worked, lived, played and prayed. And this I can tell you. Yes, Babylon had a hand in polluting them all, but let me tell you, they didn’t need much help. Why? Because there was absolutely no Christian basis in most of these countries – unless you consider in some a sort of “traditional Christian culture” so far removed from practical Christianity, it hardly resembled the Faith. There was a sense of absolute amorality (more like immorality), especially amongst the poor who saw nothing wrong with stealing from the rich. In most of the world, people tell you what they think you want to hear. There isn’t much “truth” out there – and if you did find some, it was far and few between who valued it. You don’t find women of the street soliciting in front of McDonalds Hamburgers in the USA but you sure do in some of those countries. A sense of moral responsibility – well, frankly speaking, there’s so little of it, you wonder how in the world most of the people survive – there so little sense of right or wrong. The ability to fulfill any lust you may have is limited only by your pocket book and lack of a conscience. Everything is freely available. Now Kuwait was an exception. Yet, many of the Arab women would get on the airplane in their short-shorts and tank tops and be fully covered with burkas by the time they got off the plane. By then you could only see eyeballs and ankles.
Sixthly, and this I really object to, is this Revelation 18:4 doctrine and how it leads to a tremendous guilt trip on people. Most people simply can’t see how they can possibly immigrate. I have been told by a brother here, that if they would just step out, God would take care of them. This is so easy to say but the fact of the matter is that all of the main people in this brother’s ministry about whom we are talking still live within the United States, work here, get their Social Security, Medicare and Veterans benefits from this system they label as so evil. None of them have the guts or commitment to leave (short of their one abortive attempt). Now, this brings me to the point I was really trying to make and that is this: It is just about impossible for a family to move to another country and get a job. Immigration is more highly controlled than ever throughout the world. And if anyone were caught working illegally in Mexico they would not be treated nearly as kindly as they are when caught here. In most countries, you cannot get a work permit without being able to prove that there is no one in the country who can do the same job as you. That is pretty standard. So here is this ministry telling the single mom with three kids to get out of Dodge – but she’s barely making ends meet. Sure, she and her kids should leave America and go somewhere else? They barely have enough money to put gas in the car and food on the table and Bro. X’s Ministry enjoins them to pick up and move by faith? That is what I have been told. So why don’t the principals in the ministry lead the way and get out now! Brother JC, I commend you for following the leading of the Lord and moving abroad. This is certainly not something that the average person can easily do and it is certainly not a guilt trip that any ministry should put on people. The last days are about testimony, keeping ourselves clean from the filth of the world and standing as an individual and corporate testimony of the love and saving power of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is not about economic justice or righting the wrongs of our governments because the “poor you always have with you” – likewise, the greed and corporation of most of the wealthy is insatiable – about the only thing the Merchants of the Earth will ever cry about is Babylon going up in flames. No, this side of glory – though we try to correct its woes (and I’m not saying we should not feed the poor, care for the widows, fight against crime and corruption, etc. – especially, in high places), “the kingdoms of this world” will not become “the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ” until He returns in glory – end of story. God bless you as you follow Him with all your heart. Bro. Dene
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